The Yennefer/Triss choice in TW3

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I did not assume that :)
I was trying to say that Yen and Triss do not need Geralt to protect them, and if anything it is Geralt who needs them. Geralt was healed by sorceresses several times in the books; well except the unsuccessful attempt at the end :p
I get what you are saying, but I still feel such approach would indirectly take away from the independence and strength of their characters.
I still insist that it is cliche as well unless it is done masterfully.

Not every character has to be completely independent and physically strong to be a good character. Geralt has required assistance plenty of times before, but that doesn't detract from his character. I don't see how the aforementioned, vague situation constitutes a cliche, either.
 
Not every character has to be completely independent and physically strong to be a good character. Geralt has required assistance plenty of times before, but that doesn't detract from his character. I don't see how the aforementioned, vague situation constitutes a cliche, either.

I don't think that he's saying that good characters have to be strong. He is saying that Triss and Yennefer are already strong sorceresses who are unlikely to be damsels in distress. He is saying that making them persons that Geralt has to save will detract from their already established independence and strength. I agree with this point of view to some extent. However, I also think that there are circumstances I can imagine where even strong independent persons need to be saved by someone
(after all Triss was already abducted by Letho)
. I think that you could have to save one of them in extreme circumstances and it would not undermine their characters.
 
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I've said, for example, if you chose Triss and everything seems Ok, you go on playing and a few quests later you found that your decision has provoked some events which put Triss in danger. I'm not portraiying a damsel in distress. Just a choice which seems right be really a wrong one. doesn't happen with one decision where Geralt thinks he is saving one people and later he finds the village burnt? Then that.
 
I've said, for example, if you chose Triss and everything seems Ok, you go on playing and a few quests later you found that your decision has provoked some events which put Triss in danger. I'm not portraiying a damsel in distress. Just a choice which seems right be really a wrong one. doesn't happen with one decision where Geralt thinks he is saving one people and later he finds the village burnt? Then that.

I really don't really want choice regarding Yen/Triss to come across right/wrong choices. If there are consequences that's fine but there should be equal level of consequences for either one and not a sense of trying to force the player one direction by one being positive and the other negative.
 
I've said, for example, if you chose Triss and everything seems Ok, you go on playing and a few quests later you found that your decision has provoked some events which put Triss in danger. I'm not portraiying a damsel in distress. Just a choice which seems right be really a wrong one. doesn't happen with one decision where Geralt thinks he is saving one people and later he finds the village burnt? Then that.

And I agree that this is a cool idea, but shawn_kh's concerned that it could cause Yen and/or Triss to lose some of their appearance of independence. I was trying to (inartfully) say (1) what I took shawn_kh to mean, (2) that I agree that this is a valid concern to an extent, but also (3) that I think your suggestion could be done well if not overdone. Sorry if I botched my point entirely.
 
I really don't really want choice regarding Yen/Triss to come across right/wrong choices. If there are consequences that's fine but there should be equal level of consequences for either one and not a sense of trying to force the player one direction by one being positive and the other negative.

I think that's what wichat meant too, that you make a choice that you THINK is OK, but it has dire consequences a long time later. That's the way it should be.
 
I really don't really want choice regarding Yen/Triss to come across right/wrong choices. If there are consequences that's fine but there should be equal level of consequences for either one and not a sense of trying to force the player one direction by one being positive and the other negative.

Perhaps for saving Ciri Gerlalt must chose between side Yen path or Triss path or alone path, maybe no just by love. And how you make this choice there'll consequences, pleasant or unpleasant, just consequences which Geralt, you, never expected.
 
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I did not assume that :)
I was trying to say that Yen and Triss do not need Geralt to protect them, and if anything it is Geralt who needs them. Geralt was healed by sorceresses several times in the books; well except the unsuccessful attempt at the end :p
I get what you are saying, but I still feel such approach would indirectly take away from the independence and strength of their characters.
I still insist that it is cliche as well unless it is done masterfully.

Okay, then I must have slightly misinterpreted your point. I apologize. It wasn't my intention to misrepresent your statement. :)

The thing is, I'm not a particular fan of the damsel in distress trope myself. It's a cheap storytelling device that plays to male wishfulfilment power fantasies. However, I don't think it applies to the Witcher because of (at least) two things.

Firstly, every major character in the series, no matter his or her gender, is constantly in peril from someone or something. As I mentoned before, no amount of magic abilities or sword mastery can properly shield our protagonists from the perils of Sapkowski's world. Which is a good thing, not only humanizes it the persons in question but adds tension and suspense. I get that putting someone as skilled and witty as Yennefer in danger and then having her rescued by Geralt can break immersion and detract from her character if done poorly. And I'm not proposing that there necessarily has to be a scene in the game where Geralt takes the role of the knight in shining armor that comes to the rescue. On the other hand you don't want to present the sorceresses as untouchable since, as said before, not only are there a multitude of conceivable circumstances in which their lives could be at risk despite their innate proficiency at sensing threats, but there has to be conflict for dramatic purposes. So, in the end it's about striking the right balance between creating believable threats and providing reasonable behaviour in response to them that doesn't undermine established character traits.

Secondly, putting characters in dangers doesn't take away their independence or make them weak in and of itself. The strength of a good character has nothing to do with the power they wield. The women in the Witcher universe aren't accomplished fictional creations because they are mighty sorceresses, capable schemers and brilliant politicians or once-in-a-lifetime archers. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see female characters occupy roles that too often are solely reserved for their male counterparts, but what makes them actual strong is that they all have their own set of motivations on which they act on. These women are active particpants with defined arcs in the kind of story that, in the past, has simply presented them as tokens, plot devices without an own agenda whose existence only served to initiate certain story beats and that were seldom more than empty shells onto which male desires were projected.

Yennefer is a strong woman. Not because she can annihilate people in the blink of an eye with a spell but because she's an actual human being and not just a cipher or trophy for Geralt to obtain. She's a complex, multi-faceted character with her own goals and wishes. Yennefer's actions are determind by her personal wants.

In the end so much comes down to presentation and execution. You want to depict a scenario that feel organic and believable and that have been carefully build up. The examples I contrived yesterday might not properly illustrate this (again, I made them up on the fly), but the idea was that an unforseen or at least difficult to anticipate event arises out of prior actions and decisions done in good faith. And this could apply to all sorts of situations, both big and small, both world-shattering and intimate.

Edit: Lots of good points made here. I think, overall, we all are in agreement regarding the more problematic issues of the conversation. :)
 
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It is a terrible idea to make a scenario where Geralt's choice between Yen/Triss puts Yen/Triss in danger. We are talking about two independent and powerful sorceresses that could turn Geralt into dust. Mages have annihilated the Witchers in Kaer Morhen before. It also would be so cliche.

I'm not saying that at all. Sorry you misunderstand my point of view.
 
Choosing between some people you've never met, and will never meet again, and your friend /lover? Not that hard of a choice. Now imagine choosing between Ciri and the sorceresses.
Still, you're probably onto something there, even if that particular example is a bit crude. Though I wish the sorceresses would just get off my back and do something useful for once. Like casting a certain Hailstorm when the time is right.


It depends on the number of the people, especially if you are the person who is used to fighting to protect people, especially innocents.

Think about it. If you had to choose. The death of 1 million people or one of your loved ones. It's a though choice, I found the example fitting.

Of course I am not talking about the possibility of "thousands of innocents or your love interest". I am saying that I hope that it will not come to a decision where you have to decide between two parties which are important to you, meaning I hope the scenario does not involve:

1. Letting one die over the other
2. Simply picking one
3. A complex chain of events that can not be reasonably foreseen within the story

All of those things would come across to me as either very cliche (1), too simple (2) or very unfair (3).
I hope we get something intelligent and unusual as we are used to from CDPR.
 
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I'm not a particular fan of the damsel in distress
You hit the nail right in the head.
I could not think of the expression, so I confused everyone :)
As long as it does not feel like the damsel in distress situation then I am with you.
I was trying to say poorly written scenarios would be cliches, for example we get the ever so repeated choice of oh you can either go and save this damsel and the other will die or vice versa.
But I like your ideas.
 
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Hm... i am pretty sure, no matter which "path" you choose, you will have flaws coming with it.
Which will infuse doubts about your choice...

If you "follow" those doubts... you might find even more flaws in your choice and the relationship
end up destroyed. *shrugs* I really hope CDPR can give us that complexity here.
On the other hand... all our hearts will bleed out ... i think.
 
Okay guys I made up my mind.
Yennfer

I had time to read further into the books and yeah, Yennefer, nothing around that. Everyone who reads the books and thinks "Triss" right a way or does not at least have to think for a very long time I can't understand.

No chance I could break this.... this bond.
 
You hit the nail right in the head.
I could not think of the expression, so I confused everyone :)
As long as it does not feel like the damsel in distress situation then I am with you.
I was trying to say poorly written scenarios would be cliches, for example we get the ever so repeated choice of oh you can either go and save this damsel and the other will die or vice versa.
But I like your ideas.
Realistically I think the damsel in distress is good part of a story but the witcher is a completely different world and triss and yennefer aren't realistic women so to make them more believable their stories would need to be unconventional.

OT: I never played the first witcher or read the books so Im more attached to Triss.
 
Realistically I think the damsel in distress is good part of a story.

And realistically, no one is an island. Everyone needs outside help, and at times, outside help to outright save them. Even sorceresses, even witchers, and oh so especially, Dandelion.
 
At first it looked like a easy choice for me. I almosst didn't know who Yennefer was until second game and even after I wouldn't choose her in TW3. Then I read all the books except for the last and ok, I will give Yenn some chance, but I'm still more for Triss. Just because my Geralt is different from books in that he is more ruthless from game to game and will stop at nothing to get what he wants. Different person, same memories.
 
In case you didn't read the all of the thread, please see prior post #2359. I don't feel like writing it again.

If you already checked it out. I guess I'll just say I disagree.

Sorry, I have neither read the books or the entire thread. Heck, I have not even fully played 2. And I will note my post was mostly in jest. Though admittedly mostly.

If you want a more "serious" answer or that''s not a option, I suppose it will be whoever i feel closer to in 3. :)
 
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