i dont think it is boring.
the fun part is, which of their units will remain for this last blow.
since they need to save all for the last blow, you can be extremely strong in the beginning and they will not conquer it.
also generally just play round 1/2 as long as possible even if it looks like you lose, in order to avoid a long round 3.
i prefer playing against resjk decks way more than against those really boring monster decks
the fun part is, which of their units will remain for this last blow.
since they need to save all for the last blow, you can be extremely strong in the beginning and they will not conquer it.
also generally just play round 1/2 as long as possible even if it looks like you lose, in order to avoid a long round 3.
i prefer playing against resjk decks way more than against those really boring monster decks
i've said it elsewhere, I have no idea how anyone can set this up! This game almost never allows for a R2 bleed scenario, you or the oppo almost always win R1 a card down so it makes almost no sense risking CA to try to bleed with some crap bronze cards.
However, I do agree that it's not as boring as MO. The issue I have is I can't create a better deck than MO because I just don't have the scraps!! And I've got to Level 3. Creating some half-baked ST or NR deck would be pointless.
So you are even admitting a 20-24/8 card to be weak ?
Yeah, if he can be over 40 then 20 is weak. It requires build up with foltest pride, keyan and charges though.
Yeah, if he can be over 40 then 20 is weak. It requires build up with foltest pride, keyan and charges though.
Isn't the problem rather Addas fault then Huberts, because she can be used only in combination with Hubert, which seems to be pretty bad design.
Also, leaders are supposed to be somewhere around 12 points, so if a player only gets the Hubert + Adda combination working, Hubert isn't really able to reach his provisions.
Also, leaders are supposed to be somewhere around 12 points, so if a player only gets the Hubert + Adda combination working, Hubert isn't really able to reach his provisions.
You might be right about that, my only criticism on Hubert only addresses Adda + Hubert and not something like Meve + Hubert, in case Adda would get changed Hubert would not need any changes and would be fine as is.
By that logic of a leader being at something like 12 points Morvran would be bad, Woodland Spirit would be bad and the list continues.
An 8 point in one swing leader is obviously not giving as many points as a leader, which distributes these through rounds, so 8 points is fine as a finisher.
Your argument should actually be right and Adda being changed would an alternative.
Glustyworp would give 12 points if used with only Arachas Queen, without setup Glustyworp is an awful finisher, given that those 12 points include all of your leader charges AND a 9 provision card.
Again, I am not arguing against it as a finisher, however saying the Adda + Hubert value is too high for being uninterruptable and Hubert being a high reward card, which due to that interaction cannot fall below curve.
With Adda Hubert has no risk to be worth less than his provisions, which is just absurd.
Northern Realms do not have alot of strong cards to be honest. Hubert is often difficult to build up to and succeed with, unless Adda. Hubert is a good card for the North, and I don't think the North needs to be weakened exactly.
If Hubert goes of losing maybe 3 points on that would definitely not be relevant.
The argument is that the worst case is already positive with Adda + Hubert, resulting in Hubert being an inherently uncounterable card, it is basicly an even more ridiculous version of the initial Archespore and that one rightfully got changed.
I am not saying the North overall needs to get nerfed, however if Hubert would get the suggested changes he would still win you the game if you build him up, only that if your every engine gets answered he will not end on positive value, which should be a given for such a snowbally high synergy card.
I would not mind the provision on certain other cards being more lose, of course he can become bigger and should be played like that, but the comparison to Archespore still holds true.
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The problem with Hubert is a common problem lead by the dynamics of stacking order effects. If you manage to stack a lot of damage for last turn, you have insane value; if not, there is no point in playing from a specific moment and after, because you lost the win condition.
The main problem is not Hubert itself, but the dynamic of stacking order effects and damage (and order on leader incentivise even more all of this).
Stacking order effects I think is one of the most boring thing in Gwent, and the biggest gameplaywise problem right now.
The main problem is not Hubert itself, but the dynamic of stacking order effects and damage (and order on leader incentivise even more all of this).
Stacking order effects I think is one of the most boring thing in Gwent, and the biggest gameplaywise problem right now.
If Hubert did not blindly boost based on damage done on the turn he was played you wouldn't stack damage order effects prior to playing him. It's the only way to play Hubert because of the way the card is designed. I'd disagree completely with placing blame on order abilities. The blame falls on bad card design. So the problem with Hubert is the same problem with a lot of cards.
To add to the above, this specific issue with Hubert highlights a general problem with a much larger scope. If you toss order damage cards on a board and they stick long enough Hubert can obtain insane value. If they do not stick he can brick. This creates a scenario where you either deny the order cards or you do not. In the former case you probably lose the game. In the latter case all of that value goes poof and you likely win the game. Too many cards and concepts fit this model. Deny or remove them and win or don't and lose.
Worse yet, this "problem" influences the game from the start and cascades from there. In the absence of enough available removal targeted at the obvious order cards and abilities a player would pair with Hubert you're pigeon holed into winning round 1. If you do not do so and force the insane value out in a round you do not need to win you probably lose the game.
Some people may like this because it creates the "big swing" and adds to the wow factor. Oh boy, it's exciting. Unfortunately, it isn't very exciting when it's incredibly simple, obvious and in many cases boils down to draws or deck composition instead of proper play. Game winning plays are exciting and ingenious when there are multiple choices and a player picks the correct option. They're exciting when a player goes outside the expected behavior and utilizes a concept or card interaction in an unexpected or intelligent manner to gain value where it didn't exist before. These last two are based on strategy, tactics and player choice. Hubert is not.
I am not specifically addressing this to you, but you did make a point. Basically, any delayed effect can be used in a combo for a multitude of points. Hubert receives a lot of hate, but Craiteswords are the same. Ironically, though, the biggest potential card hasn't been mentioned (much), namely Summoning Circle. This card can pull whatever to instantly combo with another card played. A noteworthy example is pulling Vran Warrior in an AQ deck. All of these tactics can be countered, one way or the other, but usually lose you the match if left unchecked.
Another thing I want to point out is that when a card only becomes viable when you are already winning, it becomes useless altogether because your only have overkill value. This is often the way with big swings, like an AQ swamped board with Glustyworp.
But what are we to do about it? This discussion has spread through varies threads now. Some are complaining that their win-con got countered (okay, by a control deck, but still). And on the other side, we've got too many high variance cards. However, removing variance from the game will make it more stale and removing control from the game will make it less meaningful.
If you can get a 48 pts hubert you most likely would have won regardless of Hubert.
Actually, that's a very good point. The times I got really high scores on Hubert, I would have won without as well. Say, perhaps I had 8 charges with trebuchet. This buildup was not easy and it was not Hubert that won me the game. More often, Hubert will be the deciding factor when he boost between 5-15(or even 20 in some games).
For the Hubert analysis, that's exactly what I meant with "The problem with Hubert is a common problem lead by the dynamics of stacking order effects. If you manage to stack a lot of damage for last turn, you have insane value; if not, there is no point in playing from a specific moment and after, because you lost the win condition. "
It can be gamechanging or useless, and thats fine.
But I think designs like that should not exist, because they use Order effects to get value.
And then the Order topic. Order is BAD.
Why order is BAD?
- It has carryover potential -> let's face it. It is the same as with the Mulligan tied to leaders (that everybody wanted to use only between round 2 and 3!!). That has been changed (a huge change after couple of months since final release!). Why not changing the pretty much identical pattern of the order abilities of leaders now? The dynamic is everytime the same: you just save as much as you can because the leader ability is worth pretty much 1 card of value. So just save it for last play and you get boring, uninteractible and optimized value.
- Order abilities (unless other "automatic" engines and timers) offer to the player too much TACTICAL CONTROL. Many order abilities damage by 1 or similar a manually chosen target. There are no tradeoff because you can never waste any point while using them unless you hugely blunder (trebuchet instead is an example of good non-order engine idea).
- Order abilities offer too much OPTIMIZED TARGETED REMOVAL
- Order abilities can disrupt indirect alignment and plays (just put the boost in the right unit and all of a sudden a long term plan failed miserably because you can choose exactly how to defend)
- Order abilities can be stacked (look at the Artifact-scorch-schirrù meta: dynamics like that cannot be avoided in full just because Order exist)
and lastly, order effects can be easily translated into Timer, Engine or trigger effects, solving all the issues!!
But this means also that cards like actual Hubert should be changed, because they live only out of Order abilities (why not reimplementing something like the Beta Bloody Baron?)
Removal is another topic (and should be changed, huge discussion even here)...
By the way nobody can say that making Order effects sticking take skill as it is right now. Baiting removal? What a joke. If the opponent has removal, he will dump it into an order engine (have you seen the last Gwent Open 8? The only things that were not answered directly with hard removal or locks were NON-order engines like trebuchet).
If not (aka: he has not removal), he will let your Order cards to stick (with all the tactical optimization problems listed above).
It's not skill, it's law of large numbers.
Going back to Hubert, my concern with the card goes back to the root. It is bad design (its like a reversal Schirrù) because at its core it incentivizes the abuse of order (a bad - and sadly core - mechanic of HC).
I'd go insane playing order cards all the time. If I ever bothered with a NR Hubert deck I'd just end up facing NG, or lose R1 to someone with Yrden/Scorch. Bad enough any time I use a Skellige bloodthirst deck, which goes something like this (I face NG about 4 out of 5 times when using a SK deck with order):
GS - lock - Flam - remove - Longship - lock - Longship again - remove - GS again - lock - witcher trio - arachas.
But that's off topic, apologies.
GS - lock - Flam - remove - Longship - lock - Longship again - remove - GS again - lock - witcher trio - arachas.
But that's off topic, apologies.
I think the only "safe" deck for Hubert is Adda. I've played both order and charge decks with NR, and both are somewhat underwhelming. My charge deck has an element of auto-boost in it, but every buildup is pretty hopeless, and the synergy it demands makes it difficult.
Order decks are even worse, unless you use Foltest, but sadly, he only has 3x zeal ability. In any case where you play those order units, they will be immediately locked or destroyed. The risk is just not worth it. That's my general impression with order, even with a couple of Nilfgaard order cards. Deploy is just that much better.
I think there is something wrong with Skellige, personally. I'd like to see more of those units have "order" instead of deploy. The damage is just too high and too much in general. Compare that to NR with roughly the same destruction ability of Skellige, but with NR you have to wait one round to use any of that damage.
Order decks are even worse, unless you use Foltest, but sadly, he only has 3x zeal ability. In any case where you play those order units, they will be immediately locked or destroyed. The risk is just not worth it. That's my general impression with order, even with a couple of Nilfgaard order cards. Deploy is just that much better.
I think there is something wrong with Skellige, personally. I'd like to see more of those units have "order" instead of deploy. The damage is just too high and too much in general. Compare that to NR with roughly the same destruction ability of Skellige, but with NR you have to wait one round to use any of that damage.
Yeah, the safest is Adda because you have automatically an order to stack on the effect of Hubert.
But the problem of Hubert is NOT that he is broken or not: it's the design of such card.
As for the Skellige I don't think they need more Order effects (infact I think Gwent needs LESS overall Orders, if not any at all), but they need more engine, trigger and timer effects (And Bersek, coming with the expansion, is an example of a BEAUTIFUL trigger mechanic that CDPR is introducing; really well done!)
The roots of the problems with Hubert go back to the Order effects (they can be stacked and they offer manual target removal and points optimizations, too efficient if you compare them with other forms of engine and against other engine in general).
The simple existence of Orders make many players run PLENTY of removal. Why?
Because Order effects (that in the majority of the cases are 1 point manual pings) can't miss a point.
A Reinforced trebuchet can miss value (Hit an armor? Hit a deathwish? Hit the highest unit and lower it below the 8 point mark? Hit a shield?) and it's not that straightforward that it will ping the card you want to remove.
Order effects will NEVER hit a shield, they will NEVER kill a deathwish, they will NEVER hit armor and they will NEVER lower the value of the opponent's highest card while you are sitting on a Geralt of Rivia.
Instead, Order effects will ALWAYS focus on the most dangerous threats (aka: point generators or combo pieces) as soon as they hit the board by removing it, and they can easily snowball without any real effort.
Therefore, that's why now you need to play pretty much only removal: you can't (in general) let any order effect to stick, or you will automatically lose. If you add more Order effects, you are pretty much worsening the dichotomy.
What's the point with Hubert (remember, I don't think he is broken; I think it is bad designed because he can be used only by abusing the bad dynamic that arise by stacking order effects)??
I think that Hubert makes us misunderstanding the problem: we are focusing on the consequence (Hubert) without looking at the cause (stacking order effects).
Lastly, charge is a subset of the Order family, so Order is always at least as good as the worst charge-based deck (every charge-based deck is an Order-based deck, even if not every Order-based deck is a charge-based deck).
It encourages/exposes the two worst aspects of the game - hard counters and quality of deal.
Ocvist? Better kill it. Saenthessis? Lock it. It's beatable, even with last say, but you need a deck of hard counters, which means you need to have got them all in the deal. I deliberately have to include counters to try and get rid of these cards, what other choice do I have? But if I don't have them in hand, might as well quit.
Then we get back onto matchmaking - if I build a deck around Eredin, make one card immune than play nothing but spells (for example), then Hubert gets zero. Chances of then playing against that particular deck when I've build the hard counter? Zilch.
Ocvist? Better kill it. Saenthessis? Lock it. It's beatable, even with last say, but you need a deck of hard counters, which means you need to have got them all in the deal. I deliberately have to include counters to try and get rid of these cards, what other choice do I have? But if I don't have them in hand, might as well quit.
Then we get back onto matchmaking - if I build a deck around Eredin, make one card immune than play nothing but spells (for example), then Hubert gets zero. Chances of then playing against that particular deck when I've build the hard counter? Zilch.
Well, you talk alot about order, but that's very different than charge. Hubert is best used with a charge deck, if you don't count Adda deck. You stack charges. Orders are not easy to stack at all, they will be removed almost always. Pretty much the only way to use order units IMO is with foltest and/or Zeal of some sort. But zeal also usually get removed if it comes with a unit.
But, my best success with Hubert has been with charge decks. It's not an easy deck to play as I said. But even if successfull, as someone mentioned, it will not really matter if Hubert boost 15 or 500, that's not what is winning you the round. The charge unit is what will likely win it for you. Let's say a Trebuchet with 8 charges, 24 damage. On top of that your units are probably already boosted with Dandelion or some other way.
I think it was resonable to change the provision cost for Hubert. I think there is nothing wrong with the design of the card. But I also don't think it would do any damage to lower his base value to 1 instead of 3. That wat, the risk when failing with Hubert is somewhat higher, and the reward slightly lower if you start at 1 instead of 3 when boosting.