Is CDPR moving in the wrong direction?

[ThePro]

Vincent's story is a good example of how to do that right. The happy ending is earned. Takes multiple tries on Geralt's part, there's lots of drama, (neither of them are perfect. Vincent is even said to have hit Carmen several times), but through toil and sacrifice, it works out, and believable so. I don't think they execute this nearly so neatly with Vivienne's quest. Moreover, Vincent's story works because of how exceptional it is. In Touissaint, this is the norm. And darker parts much later main story don't do much to make up for it, especially since the writing quality in general is lower.

I'm not saying the game should be grimdark all of the time. But it should be at least a little dark more than once or twice. The balance is off in Blood and Wine, I feel. Ironic given the title.

 

[Pug.]

Vincent's story is a good example of how to do that right. The happy ending is earned. Takes multiple tries on Geralt's part, there's lots of drama, (neither of them are perfect. Vincent is even said to have hit Carmen several times), but through toil and sacrifice, it works out, and believable so. I don't think they execute this nearly so neatly with Vivienne's quest. Moreover, Vincent's story works because of how exceptional it is. In Touissaint, this is the norm. And darker parts much later main story don't do much to make up for it, especially since the writing quality in general is lower.

I'm not saying the game should be grimdark all of the time. But it should be at least a little dark more than once or twice. The balance is off in Blood and Wine, I feel. Ironic given the title.

The only mistake that CDPR made, in my opinion, was making the ending happy across the board, even if Ciri died in your original playthrough. When I first watched a let's play in which Ciri perished at the hands of the White Frost, I got the distinct impression that Geralt gives in to his despair and commits suicide, allowing himself to be overwhelmed by a swarm of monsters. Regardless of what transpired in the base game, however, Blood and Wine still ends with Geralt smiling at the camera and the implication that he goes on to peacefully retire. I guess that's the problem with setting the second expansion after the events of the main campaign. CDPR couldn't very well look at a portion of their audience and say, "Tough luck. Your Geralt lost the will to live when Ciri died, and now you lose the ability the play this latest bit of DLC."

 

[ThePro]

The Empress Ending goes from Bittersweet to just "Sweet" because Ciri loves her Papa Emhyr. That's the worst part to me.

 

[Tangsta]

How is Detlaff not a cardboard villain? Yeah, he doesn't kill for fun, but out of anger. Regis telling him a good guy is all fine and good, but the writers forgot to ever show it. We only ever see him carving things up in a rage. In the over-quoted words of the Futurama writers "You can't just have your characters say how they feel! That makes me feel angry!". I'd come to expect more. Especially after HoS.

Ugh, no.

Spoiler

Dettlaff committed those murders out of passion, because his "lover" was held captive and her life threatened. The game made it clear he was madly in love with her and would do anything to save her life. There was also the flash back scene where Dettlaff uttered "forgive me" before killing one of his targets, and even went so far as cutting off the hand that committed the act, out of disgust. Clearly, he has empathy for his victims.

The only time "anger" was in play was when Detlaff discovered the truth about Syanna and went into a fit of rage due to the betrayal. His motivations for wanting to kill her was actually somewhat justified because she led him to murder those he considered innocent (at least at the time). Syanna was the one that "killed" out of anger, motivated by a damaged childhood and consumed by hatred.

I honestly don't think you are fit to criticise the writing here if you can miss such obvious details.

The Empress Ending goes from Bittersweet to just "Sweet" because Ciri loves her Papa Emhyr. That's the worst part to me.

Ciri did explain that

Spoiler

her motivations for taking up Emhyr's offer was to try to make the world a better place, and that she couldn't do that by running around killing a bunch of random monsters as a Witcher. There was nothing in that scene that indicated she was doing it for the love of her biological father - the look of sadness on her face when she saw the Nilfgaard soldiers approaching and the dread in realising her time with Geralt was up.

Once again, I have to question how of much of the details you actually paid attention to in this game. Perhaps another playthrough should help clear some things up for you.

 

[Sunsibar]

I couldn't vote, there wasn't "didn't even notice new direction"option.


And sorry, didn't read all posts... All Witcher games has been different and I don't think that it's a bad thing. Why doing same thing over and over again? All games has their rights and wrongs and all games are great. Witcher 2 had stuff that I missed in Witcher 3, but Witcher 3 had stuff that was new and I liked a lot. Can't say much about Witcher 1 because I haven't completed it yet.

CDPR choice consequences are the best I have seen this far. In every game. They made the finest RPG that I know. I trust that they are going to make lots of new and wonderful games in the future, but I don't want them to be clones to each other.

BAW was the last goodbye to Geralt, his retirement party if I can say so. So it's clear that they made it a bit different. I don't see that it's a sign for some "Disney route". Never even thought about that. I trust that we are going to see much more great characters and story telling in the future

 

[sv3672]

The only mistake that CDPR made, in my opinion, was making the ending happy across the board, even if Ciri died in your original playthrough.

Yes, that seems to be the only significant change to the endings, that the game now confirms that Geralt survives the fight in the crone's hut, and he still lives happily ever after (with Ciri not even mentioned in the epilogues). Other than that, "Be it Ever so Humble" only expands on the existing endings, it may be somewhat of a fan service, but not to an extent to be really an issue, and it is only a small part (like about 2%) of the expansion's content. As is the set of new dialogues added to the main game at the release of Hearts of Stone, while these received some criticism, considering that they probably had to be made with rather limited resources and are on average still an improvement to the scenes that have been patched, I do not complain about those either, even if they could ideally have been done better.

Regarding choices in Blood and Wine, I think it may actually be somewhat of an improvement over the first expansion. While Hearts of Stone has a well written story, it seems most people take the rose from Iris and do not let Gaunter O'Dimm take Olgierd's soul (which were also my first choices), and the consequences of these are also more immediately apparent. There is more debate over whether Dettlaff or Syanna should be alive at the end of Blood and Wine, and there are more choices that determine the outcome and they lead to more different paths in the game, even if this happens only near the end after an otherwise linear story. The consequences of the most important choices are also not obvious at the time when they are made, which makes it easier to get an ending one is not satisfied with (it is debatable whether that is a good thing). Although it is admittedly still fairly easy to get the "happy" ending.

I couldn't vote, there wasn't "didn't even notice new direction"option.

Then the fourth option would be the best.

 

[Sunsibar]

Then the fourth option would be the best.

I guess that it kinda fits. But I would prefer if it said "I don't think they are going in a wrong direction"

 

[Draconifors]

I haven't played B&W (so I didn't read through the posts to avoid spoilers), but I don't think CDPR are going in a new direction. Certainly not so much so that it would worry me.

 

[Troldierman]

I don't think it has anything to do with directions but as I have said before that BaW was kind of a mixed bag for me. Overall, I praise it for its world design (even though there are a few gripes like not enough elven ruins, underground exploration and Caed Myrkvid being inaccessible), and the soundtrack. The storyline and its pacing was worse than both HoS and the base game for me. Although Regis and Anarietta's depictions were pretty good. Syanna and Dettlaff... ugh! Probably two of my least favorite characters of the witcherverse.

 

[Lyvean]

First of all, in my humble opinion, making a poll about CD moving in a new direction when they have just completed one of the most epic and well written RPGs ever made verges on trolling.

Secondly, the idea that the game should be "dark" from time to time because "that is how the world is" is a pretty weak argument. The game must serve the story first and foremost and if a story works better with a lighter tone, then so be it. That is what serves the story better. You can't judge a story's quality because it doesn't obey your idea of a dark world. The books have many funny moments and I would easily argue that the main game is much darker in tone than the books.

Blood and Wine is not perfect but you seem to forget it is only an expansion and not a full game. Some characterization has to be more limited in order for the resources to meet the economical realities of an expansion. That said, claiming that the actual writing is worse is entirely false.

The main characters are wonderfully presented and CD actually takes a step forward in their characterization by allowing actions and not words to expose their characters' turmoils.

Spoilers follow:
While Regis keeps his philosophical approach that brings out the cynical wisdom that he is supposed to have excellently, Detlaff takes the role of a force of nature, consumed by his feelings which are magnified by his love for Syanna. The balance between the vampires is wonderfully upheld by Orriana, which acts as a kind of intermediate to the development of both the characters presenting both sides of them in her personality which emits wisdom and fear in equal measures. The extraordinary dialogue scene after the ball is the best written moment of CD and shows how much they has grown in scene directing. They are on another level compared to their contemporaries.

The sisters' development was also excellent, giving out a tone of fairy tale to establish their bond as children but also allowing the current darkness to appear strong, which we see in Syanna when she and Geralt have the final talk before the council judgement. The connection of Syanna and Geralt as "freaks" is evident and creates a morality issue for Geralt, who also has his employer to take into account. Regis continuously supports Detlaff which also brings another difficult situation for Geralt and the player which culminates on one of the final choices when Detlaff attacks the city. It is true that Detlaff could be explored deeper but it is not necessary, since he serves the story as he is: a deranged by love vampire who has been betrayed by a human. A human could kill if he was treated like that, so Detlaff's choice to attack the city makes sense as his feelings of love and betrayal are magnified.

Toussaint is a douchy that has known peace and its culture is that of knights, romance and heroic deeds. The people live like that and it is presented very well. Changing the tone because "the witcher games must be dark" doesn't make sense. There is plenty of darkness in the characters, as I showed you above, but keep in mind that this just an expansion and a farewell to one of the best games ever made. As an amateur writer myself I am frankly astounded by the quality level of CD's writers and their commitment to culture writing as well as story telling.

Of course, this is just my opinion and nothing more.

 

[Goodmongo]

I mean, the knights are supposed to be overly chivalrous caricatures IMO, so I'm not sure that using "regular human psychology" has to apply for the story to work.

Spoiler

Also regarding true love, I will say that I had a feeling I was going to spend the rest of my life with my wife at the end of our first date (which I will grant you is the third or fourth time we met). So while my own story is completely anecdotal, there are times when such encounters do happen an this it's not completely implausible. Regarding Guillaume, I didn't tell him everything because it didn't seem like he needed to know and sadly he ended up alone in a drunken state outside of a bar cursing my name. Good times.

And I talked marriage with my wife on our second date. Almost scared her away. We've been married over 20 years now. So in fact reality shows that sometimes you just know.

Spoiler

And in my game there was no "happy" ending for Guilaume based on my choices. I'm sure I'm not the only one that got this ending to the quest. That in itself should prove it's not black and white and all happy ever after.

---------- Updated at 02:48 PM ----------

The Empress Ending goes from Bittersweet to just "Sweet" because Ciri loves her Papa Emhyr. That's the worst part to me.

With this I agree 100%.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

you didn't find moral dilemma, other people did
you find it boring, other people didn't
blood and wine was a masterpiece, 10/10 for most people, so, no, cd projekt is not moving in the wrong direction
dont' compare with biowre or bethersda, these are different syles and objectives, the witcher games are way more mature, complex, deep, better in almost every way,
if you are bored of this kind of games/genre, you are free to try something else and new
if you feel geralt's story is meaningless, then you should play previous games and/or read the books,
i've played lots of rpgs and geralt's story is one of the most meaningful stories,
fallout 4 looks like a game from 2006, dragon age inquisition is boring as f**** and way too simple for an rpg, all maps and quests are boring, women are boyish and ugly, combat is unresponsive, and i can continue to no end, and the fact that they sell it's no proof that they are good quality, which they are not, so those are no good examples to comprare to

 

[ThePro]

Ugh, no.

Spoiler

Dettlaff committed those murders out of passion, because his "lover" was held captive and her life threatened. The game made it clear he was madly in love with her and would do anything to save her life. There was also the flash back scene where Dettlaff uttered "forgive me" before killing one of his targets, and even went so far as cutting off the hand that committed the act, out of disgust. Clearly, he has empathy for his victims.

The only time "anger" was in play was when Detlaff discovered the truth about Syanna and went into a fit of rage due to the betrayal. His motivations for wanting to kill her was actually somewhat justified because she led him to murder those he considered innocent (at least at the time). Syanna was the one that "killed" out of anger, motivated by a damaged childhood and consumed by hatred.

I honestly don't think you are fit to criticise the writing here if you can miss such obvious details.



Ciri did explain that

Spoiler

her motivations for taking up Emhyr's offer was to try to make the world a better place, and that she couldn't do that by running around killing a bunch of random monsters as a Witcher. There was nothing in that scene that indicated she was doing it for the love of her biological father - the look of sadness on her face when she saw the Nilfgaard soldiers approaching and the dread in realising her time with Geralt was up.

Once again, I have to question how of much of the details you actually paid attention to in this game. Perhaps another playthrough should help clear some things up for you.

I'm well aware of all of that and have played the game multiple times. Perhaps you're simply easily satisfied and lacking in ability to critically analyze what's actually presented to you on screen?

As to the first, again, told, not shown. Yes

Spoiler

the assassinations are at Syanna's behest, but he and/or his servants are still rampaging through the city causing a great deal of collateral almost as soon as Geralt arrives. That was not on Syanna's orders.

As for the latter...maybe hold off on accuations of missing basic details when you're arguing against something that is directly and explicitly shown at the end of Blood and Wine, in almost those exact words. She has literally begun calling Emhyr "Papa". Something she has never done even with Geralt. It's shoddy characterization and more or less a retcon of the already problematic Empress ending.

 

[Tangsta]

As to the first, again, told, not shown. Yes

I just pointed out a scene to you that "shows" and you still harp on about only being "told". I'm really not sure how else to respond when you keep on denying clear facts being pointed out to you.

Spoiler

What "collateral" are you referring to here? Please provide more context. Are you referring to pre-discovery of the truth behind Rhena or post? If post, then I've already explained the source of his anger at this point in the plot, and it is at least understandable if not forgivable.

As for the latter...maybe hold off on accuations of missing basic details when you're arguing against something that is directly and explicitly shown at the end of Blood and Wine, in almost those exact words.

Didn't you realise you were talking about the B&W ending, and yes she calls him "papa", but you're still grasping at straws here since she had already explained her real reason for choosing to be Empress in the main game's ending. Her becoming closer to Emhyr was an inevitability since she's chosen to live with him until his dying days (something that simply came with the "job"), but doing so to serve the Empire, not the man himself. You've yet to provide any evidence she was doing it for Emhyr all along, and all it sounds like is your own personal interpretation of it.

It's shoddy characterization and more or less a retcon of the already problematic Empress ending.

Care to elaborate? How was the Empress ending problematic and why is this suddenly a retcon?

 

[Nonebutdevils]

During my NG+ what troubled me the most was how pointless many dialogue options turned out to be.There are dialogue options that literally have the same responses from NPCs or only an extra additional sentence. I feel like those options are pointless in a game like TW due to players role playing an existing character. If the dialogue options don't matter, then I'd rather just watch Geralt be Geralt. I don't want a superficial choice, just give me the ones that matter.

One thing I liked that B&W did was that it showed you the results of consequences in the end game world better. That was something new they did that I felt should of been present in the main quest. The game world should of reflected how the main story ended instead of starting the post game right before the last chapter. I wanted to walk through Novigrad seeing the Nilfgardian , Rediana, and etc. after shocks. I wanted to see Velen reflect the consequences from the Baron or Crones questline. More of that please.

 

[sv3672]

During my NG+ what troubled me the most was how pointless many dialogue options turned out to be.There are dialogue options that literally have the same responses from NPCs or only an extra additional sentence. I feel like those options are pointless in a game like TW due to players role playing an existing character. If the dialogue options don't matter, then I'd rather just watch Geralt be Geralt. I don't want a superficial choice, just give me the ones that matter.

Given that there are about 6000 different choice lines in the game and expansions, it would have been quite expensive to implement meaningful consequences to all of them, rather than just changing the next couple of lines in the conversation, like it happens the majority of time. But those dialogue choices are still not pointless, and playing as a character with an existing history does not mean that players should not be given some freedom to role play Geralt as they imagine him in the given situation. Not to mention that removing most choices from the dialogues would basically turn them into cutscenes - players tend to find passively watching things they have no control over for a long time boring, and often end up skipping or ignoring them. Even if the choices mostly do not matter, they make the players feel more like they are actually involved in a conversation.

 

[marc_dwonn]

As Essenthy already said, B&W was made by another team* (please read the recent interview w- John Mamais, were he explains that they build a new studio in another big city in Poland, and B&W was their first big project), and that is IMO the reason why it feels and plays different.

I didn't find it as good as HOS, a bit shallow, it felt like they invested most of the time creating this whole beautiful new map, and then realized they have too little time left for creating the gameplay/story/characters. Geralt felt out of character sometimes too. There was something not quite right with B&W, but i can't really put my finger on it, so to say.

*if my facts are wrong, please correct me.

 

[ThePro]

Can you provide a link to this interview? If it was a totally new set of writers then that's less worrisome (I mean it's not like TW1 stacks up next to TW2 or TW3 in terms of writing), but I've consistently heard otherwise elsewhere.

 

[Rawls]

Can you provide a link to this interview? If it was a totally new set of writers then that's less worrisome (I mean it's not like TW1 stacks up next to TW2 or TW3 in terms of writing), but I've consistently heard otherwise elsewhere.

I believe this is the interview he is referring to, but I could be wrong - http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=707

Specifically these parts:

I joined in late 2011 and wrapped The Witcher 2 on PC and Xbox 360. After W2 we had a huge task in front of us given the content scope and technological requirements for the now open world of The Witcher 3.

...

At the time, we also decided to attempt to split the studio into 2 major content teams, namely Witcher and Cyberpunk, and to create a 3rd core technology team responsible for the engine (REDengine) to support both games in parallel production.

...

It was a bit mad because the team was suddenly splintered, but it did give us a huge hiring impetus, and we did manage to effectively triple the size of the team in a few years. Towards the middle of development on The Witcher 3, we decided to move the majority of devs from Cyberpunk 2077 back into Wild Hunt. This really injected a lot of talent and energy into the W3 team and provided the necessary energy to push it to the end. In the meantime, we were still thinking about expanding our structure. We perceived Kraków as being a good talent pool and we had always wanted to form a second development arm in Poland (North and south) and we decided to give it a go. Shortly after the Kraków team was born and immediately tasked with conceptualizing an idea for an expansion pack for Wild Hunt. In the same time we were integrating the core tech team in Warsaw into Cyberpunk 2077 structure.

...

Kraków played an important role in the development of Blood and Wine – with the whole idea of Toussaint and some of the core story ideas and key art from the team there. And in terms of code, Kraków is continuing to play a vital role in the development of the the engine, with the entire programming team there tightly integrated across our engine and tools team in Warsaw.

...

It’s been The Witcher 2 straight to The Witcher 3 in parallel with Cyberpunk and then, after TW3 base game, straight onto 2 large expansions: Hearts of Stone and Blood and Wine. To realize our ambitions regarding Cyberpunk 2077 we need to scale the size of the team working on it which means from 300+ to 500+. Kraków will play a critical role in that expansion and the intention is to grow that studio from 30 now to 100+ in the next year (representing about 20% of the dev team on CP). Kraków is already planned to work on some key areas of Cyberpunk. But it’s part of the goal to build a studio with its own identity and to give the Kraków team ownership. Thereafter in Kraków it will be more and more growth and a new independent full AAA game conceived, pitched, and developed in Kraków.

So there are definitely multiple teams, and the new one in Krakow did do a lot of the development for B&W. I personally think they did an awesome job. They are apparently helping with development of Cyberpunk, but will eventually go on to focus on a as of yet unannounced AAA game.

EDIT: P.S. The last two quotes are out of order compared to how they appear in the article. I thought it made more sense this way.

 

[marc_dwonn]

Thanks Rawls, that's the one.