Level scaling ruins the game

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Tbh, I'm fine with Level Scaling being a thing. I agree that it should have been a toggle. But Hard feels "hard" now. I feel like I'm playing an actual game and not just "I am Mr. V, Pls die now kthnxbai".

Also, on the argument of hacking. It NEEDED a nerf. It was insanely powerful. So much so that it trivialized everything. Now it has been brought more in line with balance thanks to the 2.0 changes and the addition of scaling. You could just "zot" your way through everything. Now you actually have to use your head. Enemies rushing you? Use throwing knives/melee/monowire to pick targets off and make use of nifty bonuses and free quickhacks (monowire play). It's honestly better than being so braindead that all you do is go "I QH Short Circuit. Okay the whole room's dead. Time to loot".

Anyway. It needs a few tweaks for sure, but the game is in a FAR better place. And besides, without scaling, the NCPD and MaxTac would be a joke. This way they're actually scary. I got to 5 stars once... dear god...
 
Level scaling works both ways. While enemies will feel like a threat in harder difficulties throughout the whole game, they're also not ridiculously overpowering when at low level. So there wouldn't be any weird areas where basic grunts would have boss level health.
 
Tbh, I'm fine with Level Scaling being a thing. I agree that it should have been a toggle. But Hard feels "hard" now. I feel like I'm playing an actual game and not just "I am Mr. V, Pls die now kthnxbai".

Also, on the argument of hacking. It NEEDED a nerf. It was insanely powerful. So much so that it trivialized everything. Now it has been brought more in line with balance thanks to the 2.0 changes and the addition of scaling.
I played Hard before the update and it was actually hard, Hard in 2.0 is like Normal on the previous. Also, hacking is still powerful, get Stealth Damage and Quickhack boosting cyberware and Overheat everything. It gets silly at Blue Tier as you can queue Sonic Shock first and it doesn't even trigger an alert or trace.
 
Maybe level scaling was needed because in PL players of different levels can enter Dog Town. And they all need to get adequate experience there. Without scaling players who started fresh and rushed to get to PL without progressing the character a lot might be too weak. On the other hand players that made many hours in the game with their V could be overpowered in Dog Town.
My personal experience is that the game is a bit easier now so nothing wrong happened. I trust that CDPR did the right thing.
 
I want to preface my post by saying that I've not played the 2.0 version of Cyberpunk, so my thoughts throughout it will be regarding level scaling in general rather than delving into specifics about its Cyberpunk 2077 implementation.

For me personally, it is strange to see such a fundamental change to the core experience in a game 3 years after its release, so I can understand people being disappointed with it on that basis alone. I'm trying to imagine anticipating an expansion for an existing game (and thus having certain basic expectations of what that means) for that long, only to find out it's not the same game anymore in some very impactful ways. At this point, we're not talking about polishing up existing systems and QoL changes to make what is already there better, but an outright overhaul of the experience - so, from the get go, it is entirely understandable that some people will inevitably feel uneasy about it.

Delving deeper into the difference between having levels scaling vs. not, such a change impacts several different aspects of a game. Both approaches can have their upsides and downsides, and both can be implemented poorly - that does not render either concept irredeemable.

So, I think it's important to understand the goals of each approach, compare it to the goals of the game in question and then, with that in mind, try to understand the motivation of using one over the other.

If we look at the world of Cyberpunk 2077 - Night City - from a conceptual level, it's all about the city itself uncaringly stepping over any ambition or dreams an individual might have. If you want to leave a mark, it is up to you to face up to the challenge, rather than expecting the city to bend to you. With that in mind, introducing level scaling to the game world makes it so that exactly the opposite effect is achieved - the city morphs itself around the player character, defeating any attempts by the game to give the impression that the city indeed does not care about the player character. Therefore, on a conceptual level, I think levels scaling works against the goals of the game world.

Let's then consider Cyberpunk 2077 as a role-playing game from a mechanical standpoint. Now, Cyberpunk 2077 , you would think, is in the lucky position of actually being based on an existing tabletop roleplaying game. However, the developers decided that attempting to emulate it in video game form is not the approach they'd like to take. Indeed, Mike Pondsmith himself has said on several occasions that he doesn't believe in doing a straight translation of the tabletop ruleset. For the purpose of this discussion, I will ignore video games that have successfully achieved this, and instead only look at the pure mechanical differences between the 2 approaches that the developers landed on - namely, level scaling and set levels in an open-world action RPG, and how those relate to the role-playing experience.

What you get with level-scaling:

- More consistent challenge throughout the game, but with low variance, as this is bounded by the underlying stats for that level.
- Less restrictive open world, you can go where you want without worrying about areas being too difficult (or areas you've skipped becoming too easy)
- Main quest pacing entirely in the hands of the player - you can play the main quest at your own pace, knowing that it will always scale to your level. You can rush through it, or do as much side content as you'd like before even touching it - you will not feel under/over-levelled.

What you get with set levels:

- A wider range of challenge, but with less consistency. If you want you can challenge yourself by going into more dangerous areas early on, or you may try to do as much level-appropriate content as you can in order to smooth out the difficulty curve.
- A world that opens up more as you keep playing and improving your character, but feels more closed off at the start and with fewer areas where challanges can be found towards the end.
- Main quest pacing still largely in the hands of the player, but at a difficulty cost. Challenge will vary depending on how much side content you've done.

Of course, there are many more mechanical differences, but those generally seem like the main ones. So, then, ignoring how successfully these are implemented, the question becomes what type of game does Cyberpunk 2077 want to be. If you wish to allow the player more open world freedom, then level scaling seems like a no-brainer - they get to experience what they want, when they want it. If your desire is to enhance the feeling of progression and offer a more directed path to unveiling the world to the player, then clearly having set levels offers you more tools to achieve this. In both cases, you can have an implementation that doesn't live up to the potential of the chosen approach, and I don't think Cyberpunk 2077's implementation of set levels was particularly good to begin with, personally. Switching systems isn't necessarily the solution to that problem, though - iteration is just as viable.

What impact does it have on actual role-playing? I would say minimal, if any. Both appoaches offer different styles of role-playing, but neither is more "RPG" than the other. The role-playing on offer will depend largely on how these systems are implemented, as well as the ruleset and its application throughout the game.

Given that Cyberpunk is meant to be a story-driven game, I personally lean more towards having set levels in the game, as that allows for a more directed experience. I also prefer not having enemies that change depending on my character, as it diminishes the illusion of a living world for me, which in turns makes it more difficult for me to get engaged with the story. Whether level scaling is achieved by spawning enemies with the appropriate equipment to match their danger level, even if they don't really belong in that area, or it makes common thugs as powerful as a well-equipped mercenary, it will always shatter any pretense that this world is more than a theme park. For some, that is more than fine, and I recognise this, so what i am saying is not meant to disparage the desire for such an experience. It's simply not the experience I've come to expect from CDPR games nor the one that i want from them.

So, it is imporant to recognise that there is more to the mixed reaction to this overhaul than "I don't like change". It's often more a case of "I don't like this change". At the same time, CDPR can of course make whatever games they want to make, and those game will find the audience that they target. It can be tricky, however, when such a change is attempted over the course of a single franchise, let alone a single game, and I think this is what we're seeing here.
 
Maybe level scaling was needed because in PL players of different levels can enter Dog Town. And they all need to get adequate experience there.
Not sure, enemies were already "scaled" in the main quest ;)
No matter your level when completing a main quest, enemies always were at average threat at minimum (unlike all other enemies).
 
I can kinda se both sides in this, i get why they did it tho. Its much easier to balance if the mobs always scale to your level. I would like a toggle implemented but that will not be as easy as you might think. You will need to rebalance everything since you have diffrent stats and talents now and with all the other changes that will take alot of effort to get right i think. You can go for a more all around build today and still perform well enough since you have 10 more stat points and the relic tree adds some more cool stuff. You do turn into a killing machine again with the right spec at higher levels (i oneshot most mobs with my silenced pistol and with sandy i can clean out whole rooms easily before they knew what hit them)
 
One of the biggest problem is, that you can't get unique loot at a low level, because it also leveling.
Everything leveling. Enemies, loot, store goods and a components.
Even if you get low level loot, you can't upgrade it, because the low level enemies also drops low level crafting components, and you can buy only low level items in shops too.
Therefore the joy of exploration is lost.
If someone on low level likes to go to dangerous area for better loot, they can now look for another game.
Cyberpunk 2077 was an incredible RPG, today is a good action game.
Unfortunately.
 
I think the people complaining about level scaling haven't played enough. I am feeling a clear sense of progression - to the point where I have had to crank up the difficulty because the gap between my character and the enemies became so large in terms of power.

And it felt rather incremental. Like my levels and the gear I was buying mattered.

That being said - balancing does seem to be an issue. The game seems to be tuned around playing the main story/main quests from start to finish while deviating from time to time. If you go off and do a ton of the side stuff you get really overpowered.
 
Pillars Of Eternity II provided several options to adjust the level-scaling, and balance in that type of game is harder than here:

-None

-Critical path,excluding side quests and tasks.

-All

And on top of that an option of only level scale upwards (if you overleveled). Also level scaling was never a 1 :1 scaling so if underleveled you can still have a hard time winning and if extremely overleveled you still feel your "weight".

For challenges, they added "megabosses" which could have been added pretty easily as Gigs. Creatures can go above the level cap actually, and you can find some of them in the DLCs and can be beaten if you know your build and party.

Level scaling as implemented in patch 2.0 is minimum effort.
 
If someone on low level likes to go to dangerous area for better loot, they can now look for another game.
Cyberpunk 2077 was an incredible RPG, today is a good action game.
hum... again, except iconics, loot was already leveled before (only enemies weren't)... So even by exploring high level area, everything you were able to loot was locked by level anyway (looking at you legendary rocker boots and pants locked at level 30^^)
So speaking about loot, make no sense, because it doesn't really change anyway ;)
 
One of the biggest problem is, that you can't get unique loot at a low level, because it also leveling.
Everything leveling. Enemies, loot, store goods and a components.
Even if you get low level loot, you can't upgrade it, because the low level enemies also drops low level crafting components, and you can buy only low level items in shops too.
Therefore the joy of exploration is lost.
If someone on low level likes to go to dangerous area for better loot, they can now look for another game.
Cyberpunk 2077 was an incredible RPG, today is a good action game.
Unfortunately.
This is silly. The game was never an incredible RPG. The way skills were dealt with previously was haphazard at best. A lot of the systems in the game originally reeked of placeholder systems because in my opinion, they were. Cyberpunk was always more action oriented than RPG, months before the game released CDPR even changed the genre listing from RPG to action adventure. Frankly, the game is more like an RPG than ever before because it has a progressing skill tree which adds gameplay, a common staple or RPGs, rather than the skill bush with passive stats increases, literally something you see in shooters like CoD.

I said it before and I'll say it again, people are looking wistfully back at this nuanced interesting system that never existed, except maybe in their heads.
 
There were a lot of complaints made before anyone really had time to try the new system. Reading them brought the irritable old man out in me and I made a snarky post I kind of regret now because it was unnecessary and I'm trying to put a sock in the irritable old man routine.
People vote with their feet. Both the base game and the expansion have been riding high in the steam top sellers list. In the most played section CP2077 and Baldur's Gate are battling it out with each other, one on top then the other(between the two of them).

I am very conscious of the fact that, no matter what you think of the changes, someone has worked hard to implement them. Every aspect of this game has seen some work. Many of my niggles and some of my 'I wants' have been addressed. As I am embarrassed by my snarky comments I hope others are equally embarrassed about some of their posts. We are all driven(I hope) by how much we love this game and we all want more out of it than we are going to get. The devs only have so much time left on this game before they move on to other titles. I get that this might make people panic a bit about changes they would like to see. I've said this before but it is obvious that the forums/social media are read by developers. They also watch us play. Honest constructive criticism is going to get the priority.

I also wonder about Witcher fans who are worried about the direction it's new iteration might take. I can understand this but the place for talking about that is in The Witcher forums but there, perhaps the snarky old man is creeping in. Giving that up is an ongoing process ;)

All in all I am very impressed with the new system. I have had some problems with it but mostly they have been caused by me not getting out of old habits. It does have its problems and not all the criticism I've read is unwarranted. The lighting system still has it's problems. I can see how some people would find the new system more restricting. I think it's more RPG but I can see the other point of view. Some things like armour and penetration I'm still thinking on.

Now ask me what I think of Phantom Liberty?
Dunno, I haven't got there yet been busy learning this new system. I can't be a jack of all trades anymore I have to think much more about how equipment, perks and cyberware compliment one another and how I am going to use them like I would in an RPG. But a lot of people have been saying its all more shooter/slasher orientated? Maybe we get what we look for?
I suspect a lot of people are busy experimenting with the new system.

Lastly I want to give a big fat thankyou to the developers because I can see a lot of work has gone into 2.0 on all fronts. I will let you know what I think of Phantom Liberty when I get there. I've been busy having my ass handed to me in Watson but I am getting there now. Turns out you can still be a bad ass. You just have to work a bit harder for it.
if I could give you a thousand Red Points for this post, I would.

I love the new changes. Net running went from being Insanely OP with too much ease, to OP if you understand the tools provided. I'm not a fan of bullet sponges, but the feel of combat and enemy AI have greatly improved.

They should have an option to turn it off for those who don't enjoy level scaling.

Whichever side of the fence we all stand on, the devs poured their hearts into this. Even before 2.0 CP2077 with all its flaws is a labor of love that was woefully mishandled by upper management in ways that could never be fixed in this game. They'll have to save those resources for the next title in the CP universe.

I'm all for stating our displeasure, but wonder what goes on in the heads with the few that teeter on unappreciative of the hard work that goes into creating this world. There's no possible way to please everyone, and the devs clearly have shown they are trying to listen to their community. That doesn't mean they are going to get everything right. It's a heavily flawed game in many ways, but has so much charm. There's no other experience quite like it. The last Deus Ex entry was the closest thing to it, and got a lot of things right. Though I'd still rather play CP2077.

I hope everyone that worked on this title knows just how much they are appreciated. From the actors, sound engineers, to the devs and leads who actually wanted to give us a memorable gaming experience in a positive way. Heck, the content creators have been inspired too. Last Known Meal, Sam Bram, Khraze, Open World Gaming and many more.
 
I noticed in the GOG launcher, under "Beta channels" there's the option: 1_63_legacy_patch

2.0 patch would be required for the new dlc, I assume., but looks like those of us that didn't buy it can roll back to the REAL game, if we want
 
if I could give you a thousand Red Points for this post, I would.

I love the new changes. Net running went from being Insanely OP with too much ease, to OP if you understand the tools provided. I'm not a fan of bullet sponges, but the feel of combat and enemy AI have greatly improved.

They should have an option to turn it off for those who don't enjoy level scaling.

Whichever side of the fence we all stand on, the devs poured their hearts into this. Even before 2.0 CP2077 with all its flaws is a labor of love that was woefully mishandled by upper management in ways that could never be fixed in this game. They'll have to save those resources for the next title in the CP universe.

I'm all for stating our displeasure, but wonder what goes on in the heads with the few that teeter on unappreciative of the hard work that goes into creating this world. There's no possible way to please everyone, and the devs clearly have shown they are trying to listen to their community. That doesn't mean they are going to get everything right. It's a heavily flawed game in many ways, but has so much charm. There's no other experience quite like it. The last Deus Ex entry was the closest thing to it, and got a lot of things right. Though I'd still rather play CP2077.

I hope everyone that worked on this title knows just how much they are appreciated. From the actors, sound engineers, to the devs and leads who actually wanted to give us a memorable gaming experience in a positive way. Heck, the content creators have been inspired too. Last Known Meal, Sam Bram, Khraze, Open World Gaming and many more.
Don't get me wrong, I like CDPR, I loved the game, but I like role-playing games the most. And the Cyberpunk 2077 currently more action game, than rpg.
Turning off level scaling option would be perfect solution.
 
I noticed in the GOG launcher, under "Beta channels" there's the option: 1_63_legacy_patch

2.0 patch would be required for the new dlc, I assume., but looks like those of us that didn't buy it can roll back to the REAL game, if we want
That would be good; but is it really what you think - or is it a patch *for* 1.63, not *to*?
Anybody tested?
 
That would be good; but is it really what you think - or is it a patch *for* 1.63, not *to*?
Anybody tested?

I confirmed, my title screen says 1.63 now and it won't load my new 2.0 save, but that's expected.
not sure if this is an option for steam users, and really doubt console users can revert. but it worked in GOG
 
Having played 2.0 for about 20 hours now (~240h in previous versions) I think that my opinion is now settled: I like the automatic level scaling. The pros outweigh the cons.

I definitely think it could have been communicated better though. Who says that your damage/DPS output (and thus hit points) has to increase as you level? Whilst that's a feature of many types of RPGs I'm not sure it makes so much sense in modern/futuristic games where your enemies are by-and-large still human beings. Higher hit points are there in other games because "Dragons" or "Demons" or "Owlbears" etc can just plain take more hits. They're bigger, tougher, their hide is thicker etc. In games where every enemy is basically human, you don't have quite the same logical/conceptual progression of toughness and damage output.

In my mind, what CP2077 has done is not "scale enemies to your level" but rather "remove the bonus hit points and bonus damage which was inexplicably linked to your character level". It might have been implemented as level scaling, but to me that's not what it means. Now leveling is only really about skills and talents and not about some BS that you hit harder or can survive more bullets.

That makes far more sense to me in this game and also means it's closer to other similar games (both CRPGs and tabletop).

I like being able to approach quests (main or side) in any order. I like that I'm not worried about being one-shot-murdered by an enemy who's over-levelled and I like that there are no completely free lunches because of the opposite.

Having played, I also like that there very much is a feeling of power progression. My V (a stealth netrunner for the record) most definitely is becoming stronger compared the to opposition. In fact, I'm at level 24 now and - for example - I just completed Automatic Love. I killed every enemy in the area and none of them so much as had an opportunity to draw a weapon against me. Most died to a very simple T3 Sonic Shock, T3 Short Circuit combo. A couple of expert enemies needed a brace of Short Circuits.

No way I could have done that at lower levels.
 
Toreador, I like the new skill tree and agree with removing the magical HP and DPS bonuses that most RPGs have. It makes much more sense in this game to get those things through equipment including cyberwear.

But with level scaling, aren't enemies now getting those "bonus hit points and bonus damage which was inexplicably linked to your character level" as you described? That's how I feel :/
 
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